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Does a 1/4" wide X 3/8" tall ebony reinforcement strip add much stiffness to a mahogany neck? I am building a 12-fret L-00 and do not want to use the double action truss rod, due to the weight it adds to the neck. With a small light weight body, guitars seem out of balance if the neck is heavy. Since the neck is a 12-fret ,and will be have the modified vee, I don't think stiffness will be a problem.

Your thoughts?

James

I would think that creep of the neck wood over time is of more concern than initial stiffness.
CF has a better stiffness to weight ratio that Ebony, doesn't creep, and is of course more stable.
Perhaps laminating a couple of layers of unidirectional CF cloth or tape into a neck (say even Hog/CF/Hog/CF/Hog could offer some long term stability without much weight penalty while potentially being a "feature"?

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

If you are more concerned with the weight of a truss road than you are having a way to adjust the arc of the neck as time goes by, then I would go with a substantial carbon fiber rod insert. (about the 1/4 x 3/8 tall). Ebony would disappoint you a am afraid, and it will weigh as much or more than the CF.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

James: If your not going to use an adjustable rod I would suggest a CF rod with at least dimensions of 1/4"by 1/2' to insure you have enough stiffness. If you go with a depth of 3/8" be sure to plant it as deep as possible to get it as far from the center of the neck as you can.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

As a possibly preferable suggestion I liked Burton LeGeyt's experiment with different configurations of CF in a neck here, http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=18947&p=267313&hilit=+carbon#p267313

Of specific interest to yourself might be

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Not using any rod what so ever can be problematic over the life of the instrument. I'm sure that you know this but as a repair guy too who has discussed the use of rods with others who do repairs we can't for the life of us understand why folks would not use a truss rod short of building an uber authentic Martinesque design from days gone by.

If you do not use a rod you may have to learn about compression fretting sooner than you may wish and the next guy that works on the frets on the instrument may only have the option of compression fretting.

If I had to decide between the ability to manipulate the neck for proper relief and counter fretting stresses and string tension or a bit of extra weight from the truss rod I would always elect for the serviceability/adjustability side provided by a truss rod.

Just a thought.

I have done these and as Hesh is pointing out , you have to do these also with the intent of compression fretting. Martin used 2 specific ebony support designs. one is 3/8 sq and the other was used in 1953 during a steel shortage of a tee bar version.
In all honesty , you are better off with an adjustable unless you are good at compression fretting.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

In addressing the OP's original goal, not having a neck heavy instrument, selection of tuners can help here too. For example Grover open-back tuners weigh around 119 grams if they still weigh what they weighed when I weighed them for this forum 8 years ago or so. Because tuners are so far outboard from the body a small difference in weight here, in tuner land, can make a big difference in the resulting balance of the instrument.

Not sure what they weigh but the Stew-Mac golden age tuners that we have installed before seem like very good quality, look very cool, and it would not surprise me if they are not all that heavy either.

Anyway just trying to help you get where you want to go AND have the resulting instrument that you will spend countless hours building be capable of being set-up as the fantastic player that you also must wish it to be. L-OOs are a personal favorite of mine so it will be fun to watch this one as it comes together.

Thanks, everyone. That double action truss rod is feeling much lighter. I am not young enough to tackle compression fretting.

I plan to use the Golden age tuners.

James

glad we can help

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

If you are concerned about the weight 'out of balance', you could imbed a big chunk of metal in the end block. I have done this. If you are worried about total weight, of course that would be ill advised.

"Thanks, everyone. That double action truss rod is feeling much lighter."

Why not use a simple single action rod like Gibson has used since 1926? They are a relatively light weight, cheap 3/16ths mild steel rod with an anchor point on one end and a nut on the other. They can be installed in such a way as to give some "double acting" qualities if you so desire. I make my own from big box store rod and nuts from Stew Mac. I make them adjust from the soundhole end to avoid creating weakness at the peg head.

The ebony neck reinforcement is almost exclusively used (with any "success") with bar frets. from people I know who have used it they build a little compression into the neck from the beginning when working with it.

I did go through the process of having slitting saws ground down to a few smaller sizes to better match the exact size of the fret extrusion. My purpose here is to allow for a bar fret type solid connection in the slots to strengthen the board and therefore strengthen the neck also. Using regular frets this way means you have to grind off the tangs but also means that hammering in regular frets later could have a slight compression effect if needed.

While I understand the repairman's lament over the lack of an adjustable truss rod I do think the sound and feel is improved without it in there.

Here is a pic- I had to make an arbor to use the 1" hole saws on my 5/8" arbor table saw.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Thanks for your response Burton.Mulling over the same thing .Should I put in a truss rod or not. I have dual trust rods , CF rods and ebony. the whole schmear. But am not comforable with it for the prototype 4 string tenor gtr I/m designing the body is small 17in long and 13 in w at the lower bout. The neck at the nut is 32mm. I have some softer frets that have no barbs , but ARE a pita to put in.

Hey Ernie,

Yeah, without the barbs it is not as easy! I hammered mine (too tight for the De-Stac-Co clamps in the press!) and then immediately but it in my press once it is in (before the glue gels). I have a full set of the radius gauges so I can lock it in tightly/exactly to the compound board. I have been using HHG in the slot for a while and for this method I think it is important.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

True serviceability is important and some of us may indeed lament but I'm more concerned with what will happen to our friend here who may not be so very experienced with building that outcomes are completely or likely predictable. More specifically the builder will likely benefit from the adjustability of a truss rod which is really the point that I want to make.

Unless one has their processes down, have had many successes with what ever method that they use to build with, an adjustable truss rod is cheap insurance against a completed instrument that may not be playable in it's current state.

Burton buddy I suspect that you are correct about tone but how will we ever know.....

Clay's idea for a Gibson style rod is a good one too if the minimalist approach is what your looking for. But a modern double action rod will have a 50% greater chance of being what may be needed since too much back bow is not an uncommon issue for newer builders either. Dissimilar woods, water based glues, the compression induced by the fret tangs all can leave one with a back bowed neck if methodologies are not used to counter these occurrences.

If your not endeavoring to build an uber-accurate reproduction of a L-OO truss rods are a good thing to have. All of the L-OO's that I have built to date have had double action rods.

Back to repair folks and what we lament... Actually we make far more money when builders don't use truss rods leaving us refrets or creative fret dresses to heat treatments that may or many not take as one of the only options to a permanently back bowed neck.

Builders will never go wrong by keeping their creations serviceable.

PS: Anyone remember the GM small cars in the late 70's early 80's that were fuel efficient, small, fun to drive, easy to park, did not cost an arm and a leg, and you had to take them to a shop capable of pulling the engine to get to the last two spark plugs when you wanted a tune-up..... Not having a truss rod makes just about as much sense as building cars that the plugs cannot be accessed without unnatural acts... I'm speaking of guitars intended to be played and of conventional design not intentionally building historical reproductions of course. There are always exceptions.

I share the distaste for heavy truss rods, but I've been using 'em anyway. A necessary evil. I do need to try single-action, though.

Even better would be to use these http://www.dragonplate.com/ecart/categories.asp?cID=130, but they're too expensive, and would be hard for me to get the channel cut.

Has anyone tried including a sheet of carbon fiber between the neck and fingerboard? Possibly in combination with a CF bar in the neck to make a T structure?

Nomatter the case, it seems you need something other than wood in there for creep resistance when up against the tension of 6 steel strings. I've been increasingly drawn toward classicals and ukuleles for the elegance of all wood construction But that steel string tone...

Dennis,

I did add a T to my U shape on this last one. Not a complete sheet under the FB but a little more at least. Felt great but I have no data on it.-



James, your point about being out of balance is one I relate to- I think just using a relatively dense piece of wood for the tail block goes a long way. As Hesh said since the tuners are stuck so far out you can feel a bigger difference than it seems like you should if the weight fluctuates a bit. I think you get a little of that same effect by adding some weight to the other end. Even a relatively dense piece of mahogany might be enough. When I build a super light box with a double rod it does not feel right on my leg unless I beef up the tail block. I usually use spanish cedar and bore it out a bit but when I use a rod a solid denser wood makes a good difference.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

[/quote]
True serviceability is important and some of us may indeed lament but I'm more concerned with what will happen to our friend here who may not be so very experienced with building that outcomes are completely or likely predictable. [/quote]

Hesh, buddy--I love your contributions. I missed them during the "dark years". I hope you keep posting just as prolifically.

Still, I have to wonder, before you took up guitar work, were you a speech writer for a former president?

I have seen a luthier built classical guitar with truss rods. It seems redundant but it really helps. I've since encountered another factory classical guitar that has a truss rod, and it made dialing in the right setup so simple even though it was just nylon string. It doesn't make any sense to build a guitar without a truss rod unless it's meant to be very cheap. I hate compression fretting because it doesn't always work. I fretted a steel string guitar that had a fret tang too wide for the slot (bad fretwire). At first there was a backbow even with the guitar strung up but over time the backbow disappeared and a little truss rod correction was still necessary in order to get just the right neck relief!

I don't see why would anyone build a new instrument without a truss rod. Let the vintage guys worry about lacking truss rod but honestly if I were doing a fingerboard replacement on a vintage guitar without a truss rod, I'd try to talk the customer into adding one simply because it would make future repairs simpler, and it would not really affect the guitar's sound or vibe.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Eric ,hesh wasn/t a speech writer but a marketing maven, before his reincarnation into a guitarmaker/repairman,which has blessed us with the gift of gab as well as writing.

Thanks burton for your input .I/m still mulling this over .The Antes plan that I/m using suggests using a CF rod for the 4 string tenor gtr. I have them (cf rod)and think they are way overated and a waste of money. I/m in denisse/s camp accepting the evils of 2 way truss rods in SS gtrs . which I luv.But I too find myself leaning more to the possible aesthetic/artistic creativity that is possible with ukes and CL gtrs. On my last uke I tried a higher barbless frets and used a radiused caul in arbor press and fish glue for the frets. I usually use a lower narrow dulcimer /mando fret on my ukes that has barbs needs some persuasion and seems to do a good job.The barbless frets with fish glue take forever to dry. and my slot cutter is slightly loose by a couple of thousands of an inch which neccessitates clamping in hdwds like grenadillo.

This is an interesting thread for me. I'm building my third guitar, an L-00 12 fretter and I'm building without any neck reinforcement. The FB is African Blackwood and the neck will be a chunky V in honduras mahogany moulded from my '37 L-00. This particular one has had a neck set and the truss rod is completely slackned off to give enough relief for a heavy attack with 12 guage strings. MY reason for not using one is that all my guitars that have a chunky neck and the neck angle set correctly have the truss rod almost completely slack. It's an experiment for me as i love a light guitar, I'm going to keep it and if it doesnt fuction well I'll put another neck on as I'm using a bolt on.